June 30, 2026

Rising Together

Rising Together
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We will be speaking with best selling author and coach Sally Helgesen. Sally is the world’s premier expert on women’s leadership. We will discuss practical ways to build more effective relationships we perceive as different from ourselves. This will be an insightful discussion not to be missed.

NEXT! is broadcast live Tuesdays at 9AM ET and Music on W4CY Radio (www.w4cy.com) part of Talk 4 Radio (www.talk4radio.com) on the Talk 4 Media Network (www.talk4media.com). NEXT! is viewed on Talk 4 TV (www.talk4tv.com).

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The topics and opinions expressed and the following show are

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solely those of the hosts and their guests and not

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Hello everyone, thank you for joining the show today. I'm

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so excited to have Sally Helgeson as my guest.

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And Sally, she's just.

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The world's premiere person on women's leadership. She's an internationally

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known bestseller, she has ted talks, she's been in this

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business for over thirty years, and there isn't anything that

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she does not know about when it comes to women

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and the workplace and leadership. And now her latest book,

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which I absolutely love, Rising Together, how we can bridge

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divides and create more and more inclusive workplace, and I

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think going forward that's going to be very important. So Bet, Sally,

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thank you so much for joining the show.

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It's a pleasure to be here, Linda, thank you good Yeah,

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I love your books behind there.

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Yeah exactly, I know, I know.

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So how did you get into this in the first place.

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I mean, we've known each other for like thirty years,

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haven't we various different capacities, So how did you.

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Get into this in the first place.

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Well, in the late eighties, I was working as a

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speech writer in a number of different corporations, and I

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really enjoyed the work, and I had great I worked

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at great companies, but I was vividly aware of the

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inability in the organizations that I was in to recognize

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women's strengths as leaders as having you know, real ideas

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that would count and could shape an organization. And I

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remember having one experience where I proposed an idea in

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a meeting and it just didn't Nobody resonated with it,

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nobody mentioned it. They just listened and then went on

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with what they were going about.

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And I remember.

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Afterwards feeling like, oh, I shouldn't have said anything. You know,

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I'm the most junior person there, blah blah blah. And

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what was interesting is the idea I proposed, which was

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a partnership with a group that identified and New York

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City public schools who might be hireable at the for

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the company bring them in. It just didn't go anywhere,

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but the next year, the robin Hood Foundations suggested it

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to the company and it became a big deal. Now,

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obviously I didn't have a pull of the robin Hood Foundation,

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but what it did, I mean, I was just you know,

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young women sitting there as a speech writer. But what

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it did was I thought, you know what, I had

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a great idea that was just the kind of idea

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that they should have listened to. And I began noticing

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the extent to which we had really talented women and

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they felt like they were part of the workplace, but

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their ideas, their thoughts there thinking about the future and

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what the company could be, were never included in anything.

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So I decided that what I wanted to write about

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was the skills women had as leaders, which was not

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a top There were books being written then about you know,

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women in the workplace and you know what they needed

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to do, and they you know, needed to leave their

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values at home and be like the guys.

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I mean, that was the theme.

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But I thought, you know, nobody's talking about the potential,

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the positives that women have. So I decided, you know,

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I was going to write a book about it. And

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the book was The Female Advantage, Women's Passe of Leadership,

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And it became kind of a sensation because there was

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nothing else. So, you know, as happened when with most

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people in their career, timing was extremely important, and I

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was able to start putting some ideas out there into

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the workplace in a way that would help shape it

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or be part of the conversation. Because this was you know,

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the late eighties, I got in on it.

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Well that, I mean, that was brilliant. You know what

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I thought you were going to Well two things I

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want to say. One, I met you at GE because

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he brought you in to help with the whole diversity

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thing and you know, helping women expand.

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But what I thought you.

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Were going to say is that, which maybe you did.

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But you know, a woman will come up with an

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idea saying at the meeting, everybody ignores it, and some

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man comes back with exactly the same thing, and all

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of a sudden it's like, oh, well that's really a

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great idea.

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Yeah, it's essentially what happened to me. But they got

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the idea. They thought it was a great idea a

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year later when it was proposed by a group of men.

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Right of course, you know, and then it sounded like

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really good to do, really good to do. So what

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are your sally, what what were your key transformation points

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in your career?

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Oh, that's interesting, Well that was obviously the worst one. Yes,

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And then I think I began to you know, I

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started getting invitations from companies come, you know, ge, you know,

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wonderful companies come in.

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Work with our group.

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You have a program talk about, you know, what women

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can do to improve their leadership style and make their

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voices heard.

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But I felt like I was a writer.

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I wasn't a speaker, I wasn't an expert, and I

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would qualify that. I mean, people would call on say,

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I'm not an expert. I've just wrote a book. And

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I had this picture of myself as just a writer

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for a wow time.

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Yeah, and then we know you can give speeches.

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You've done ted talks, We know that everything I've done, everything,

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I've done thousands and thousands of programs all over the

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orright all over the world for six countries I think

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I counted.

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And so that was.

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Really hard for me to sort of accept that mantle

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of being an expert because I was always disclaiming it,

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this is such a female behavior.

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Right, it is, you're right.

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And once I accepted that, and once I learned to

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you know, people say, oh, you've had so much influence.

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I wouldn't say, oh, I just wrote a book or

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a couple of books, because I've written now nine.

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But I was going to say more than a couple

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of books, Sally, there's a few out there, Yes there are.

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And it you know, that was a big transformation for

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me because it meant sort of accepting and looking at

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what I had contributed and what I could contribute. And

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that's how I always look at things in the last say,

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twenty years, is through a lens of contribution.

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Yeah, very very nice. Well you were wonderful.

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You and I were just in we were in DC,

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yeah together and Fiona. Fiona's been on the show and

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your talk was so great. It was really great being

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part of that panel. I just you know, I said

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to myself as I listened to said, well, you know,

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I've no always own when I love Sally Helsey. You

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always known why. So how did you run into Marshall?

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Marshall Goldsmith, who was really influential in my career. I

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in nineteen ninety five, when I published the book The

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Web of Inclusion, I was invited out to San Diego

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to that wonderful Hotel del Coronado to don a leadership

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conference for the Peter Drucker Foundation as.

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A nice, very nice yeah.

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So I was the lunchtime speaker. Francis Hesselbeinin invited me

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out and Marshall was there and he was doing a

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workshop and we met and we just kind of hit

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it off, and he had a party that evening for

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people because he lived in the area. And I went

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and we we all piled at a bus and went

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out to where he lived, and.

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Which was not shabby. No, no, no, it wasn't sabby.

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It was it was pretty fat. And I talked to

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him a lot.

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We had a good time, and about three months later

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he called me at home out of the blue and said,

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you know, Sally, I'm putting together a group of people

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in the leadership world to get together in San Diego.

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Hopefully it will happen every year. In January gave me

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the date, He said, would you be available, would you

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come out and it was just a casual gathering of colleagues,

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and he said something that really hit me. He said,

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you know, what we do is really fun, it's exciting,

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it's stimulating, but it's also very lonely because we travel

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around the world.

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We do a program and then we leave. And such

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a good point.

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Yeah, and we don't have a real group of colleagues,

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he said, And I think that's what I'm trying to start.

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So that spoke to me a lot, because i' was

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feeling that, you know, at a life, I had my

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friends in New York, but I just my life was different.

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So I went out and it was a very impressive

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group of people. Some of the people at that time

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who were most influential in the field, Jim Kusis and Bridges,

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et cetera, wondering I love both of them, Oh I know,

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I know, fantastic, fantastic people. And then Bill later was

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working with his wife, Susan Bridges, and she joined, so

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we had it was a very intimate group. We decided

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a couple of years in that we were not going

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to expand because it evolved as kind of friendship support group,

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and through through being part of that, it was really

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I don't know. It gave me a sense of belonging

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and professional, you know, connections that I had that had

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been missing, even though I know my career was going

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well and I was very pleased with it, so that

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was important. But I had this idea, this goes to

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how women rights about me to talk about Yeah, yes, oh.

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Yeah, I would love to hear. That was actually going

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to be my next question. But I just want to

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make a comment. You know, Marshall has Marshall Goldsmith for

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any you know, look him up for anybody who's watching

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the show right now. But he has been a real

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career launcher for a lot of people. In ninety five,

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I was working for GE, but he really helped me

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to that whole you know, career expansion on my part,

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and he's done that with you and so many other people.

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But go ahead with the I didn't mean no, that's fun.

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I know, and that is true. We take him tribute

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for that.

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So he brought out this book in twenty ten called

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What Got You Here, Won't Get You There, huge national bestseller,

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and it was a factus book about you know, how

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people's strengths also undermine them in their career. Right, I

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thought The book was wonderful, but I did think that

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it seemed pretty male centric. Is that a lot of

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the things that got in people's ways, like, you know,

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they never apologize, or they you know, are constantly bragging

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about what they did, et cetera, et cetera. I thought, well,

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this is not what gets in women's ways. You know.

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I knew that I'd been working in the field of

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women's leadership by that time for twenty five years, and

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so I wanted to collaborate with Marshall and what I

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thought would be a book that took that theme but

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did it specifically with women. You know, what are the

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habits that hold women back from really reaching their full potential?

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And I felt like that, yeah, And I felt like

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I sort of had a good sense of it because

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I've been on so many panels and this was really global.

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So I wanted to ask Marshall if he wanted to collaborate,

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but it took me. It took me two years to

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work up my courage to ask him if he wanted

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to collaborate.

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That's such a woman's thing, isn't it. It's such a

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woman's thing. And he said yes immediately. I'm sure, of course.

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He did.

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But what was funny is I felt like what he'd

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think was, Oh, she wants to collaborate with me because

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she knows we can get a huge advance that you

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know that it'll boost the size of her advance, or

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she wants to collaborate with me because I have you know,

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a million and a half LinkedIn followers, so kind of

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that he would see me as someone trying to glom

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on to him. But when I suggested it, he said,

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that's a great idea. In fact, I've had women who've

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mentioned that, and I have more and more women that

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I'm speaking to and working with, and I think working

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with you would give me, really would give me much

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more credibility.

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So I love Yeah. So he thought of it completely.

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Differently than I anticipated he would be thinking of it.

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And so he yes, he did say yes, And there

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were a couple you know, contractual roadblocks, but we finally

244
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pulled that together, and you know, we had clear definition lines.

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I was going to write the book and you know

246
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we know that, Sally.

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Yeah, we were going to review it at various stages

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and he suggestions, which were always good. And then but

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he was going to be instrumental in promoting it, which

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is not my strength and not really anything I love.

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And so it just worked fantastically. We sold that We've

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sold that book in twenty six languages, which is incredible.

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And I've done you know, the programs in Turkey and

254
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Vietnam and and you know, all over the world, China,

255
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et cetera. So it's been extremely rewarding and it just

256
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resonates with people in a way that I'd never had

257
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a book resonate.

258
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Yeah, that's good. So what are the like, the things

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that really hold women back?

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Give me the give the audience the cliff notes of

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what they need to think about.

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What words would you give to men? So we'll talk

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about that after.

264
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But what are the things that hold with reluctance to

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claim your achievements, expecting others to spontaneously notice and value

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your contributions.

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That's a kind of bedrock one.

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Overvaluing expertise, feeling if I just become the best person

269
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at my job, well, of course.

270
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You know, my career will will increase.

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Perfectionism, the disease to please, oh, disease to please big one,

272
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it's a big one. Their communication habits are problematic too,

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you know, in terms of you know, failing to communicate

274
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what you've done or letting other people kind of dig

275
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it out. So all these kinds of things are really

276
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really important. Not investing enough in building and also leveraging relationships,

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establishing these sort of you know, it's not a quid

278
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pro quo, but it's more like, let's help each other,

279
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let's help each other become more successful. Guys do that

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almost instinctively and women, and I feel like I can

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speak about it partly because I have almost all these things.

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It was like my thinking of with Marshall, I was thinking, like,

283
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he'll think I'm trying to glom on, and he saw

284
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it as a big win win. So that kind of

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you know, engaging other people to really boost you. You know,

286
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in this room, I don't seem to get a lot

287
00:16:57.440 --> 00:17:01.279
of support. If I say something that you think is

288
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really you know, helpful, would you just acknowledge it? Because

289
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I need that support in the room. That kind of thing,

290
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just like even.

291
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I mean, say, if you're a woman saying something like that, yes.

292
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Exactly, saying that and then building those alliances and then

293
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looking for opportunities to do that for other people too,

294
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instead of you know, thinking, well, a relationship is a

295
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very private thing or I don't want I want people

296
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to know that I value them as friends and not

297
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just helping me advance in my career that kind of thing.

298
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So there's something about this book, you know, too much

299
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information when you're you know, speaking to people, that is

300
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very I don't know, it just it hit and it resonated,

301
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and I think it was because it was drawn on

302
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the global experience. One of the things I I that

303
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kept experiencing is, you know, you go to Japan, they say, well,

304
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we think we thought only Japanese women had these habits

305
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or you know, we thought this these habits were just

306
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you know women you know in Islamic countries, right, Yeah,

307
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I mean it was it.

308
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Was kind of all the Japanese women do subjugate themselves,

309
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probably more than other. I mean, it's a it's a

310
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it's a it's a cultural thing.

311
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For yeah, it's cultural, and it's built into the language

312
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and things like that. So it's it's very you know,

313
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it's very deep. But what's what's interesting is these are

314
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universal and they resonate, but they play out differently in

315
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different cultures.

316
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Yes, absolutely, and that's just been a source of fascination

317
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to me.

318
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So this has been a great thing, and I do

319
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feel like I have made a contribution here that is

320
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pretty remarkable.

321
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But in terms of men, yeah, let's talk about that

322
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and take to this book. So it really was I mean,

323
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you know, men, they'll they'll.

324
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At first it was like, well, I bought this for

325
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my wife, I bought this for my daughter, I bought

326
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this for my life.

327
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But then I would start to get notes from men.

328
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Two things that surprised me. Number one was I heard

329
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from a lot of men. You know I have these

330
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habits too.

331
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They may play out me differently, but you know I

332
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I don't like to talk about my achievements. I want

333
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people to notice them. I heard a lot of that

334
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in a way that surprised me. I remember being with

335
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a really high level guy at Google who was the

336
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sort of point person on a small conference I was

337
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doing of women in AI who are like all think.

338
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Have three PhDs.

339
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But he was the head of the unit, and he

340
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said to me, you know, this disease to please this

341
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is really something that I have.

342
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Really, so that was fascinating. That goes with their personality

343
00:19:59.759 --> 00:20:02.119
type too. I mean, there's a connection and men.

344
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Have the same diversity of personality types as women have.

345
00:20:07.039 --> 00:20:11.519
Yeah, that's interesting. So that really was terrific. The other

346
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thing is the extent to which men said, this really

347
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helps me understand why. For example, you know, men will

348
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complain that they try to give woman a woman a job,

349
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you know, a job, transfer a better job, give them,

350
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you know, a leadership position. They'll say, I'm not ready yet.

351
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I still need to master this job. And they're like,

352
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what is going on with her? Is there something? Is

353
00:20:37.799 --> 00:20:40.759
she pregnant? Why would she do this? Well, that's the

354
00:20:40.799 --> 00:20:43.359
first thing that comes to their mind. Yeah, exactly.

355
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You know, unless you're past a certain age, then they're

356
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thinking something else, well, sick. But they said it really

357
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helped them understand that sort of reluctance that women have

358
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and to know better how to deal with it. I

359
00:20:59.400 --> 00:21:02.319
remember this one guy who just said, you know, that's

360
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the wrong answer.

361
00:21:03.920 --> 00:21:05.119
You know it really is.

362
00:21:06.160 --> 00:21:09.759
Yes, this is an opportunity of a lifetime. You may

363
00:21:09.799 --> 00:21:12.680
not feel ready for it, but I know you're ready

364
00:21:12.720 --> 00:21:16.400
for it. I see that in you. You have the capability.

365
00:21:16.880 --> 00:21:19.799
So take the opportunity and run.

366
00:21:20.200 --> 00:21:23.640
Run, take it and run, just do it. I'll be there.

367
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I've got your back.

368
00:21:26.039 --> 00:21:29.319
So you know, that's I think one of the most

369
00:21:29.400 --> 00:21:32.039
helpful thing that a number of men said that they

370
00:21:32.119 --> 00:21:34.240
learned from this. They said, you know this is this

371
00:21:34.480 --> 00:21:38.160
changed my behavior is that's fabulous.

372
00:21:38.400 --> 00:21:40.319
Yeah, yeah, so it's been it.

373
00:21:41.039 --> 00:21:43.319
You don't you know, you write books, you you know

374
00:21:43.640 --> 00:21:47.720
they're successful or they aren't. I've had both experiences. But

375
00:21:47.839 --> 00:21:52.119
when you really feel, you really hear from people, this

376
00:21:52.400 --> 00:21:58.319
changed how I do things. That's it's priceless.

377
00:21:58.119 --> 00:22:00.359
It's a great value.

378
00:22:00.799 --> 00:22:03.319
You really know, you had a huge amount of impact there.

379
00:22:03.440 --> 00:22:05.279
So so what got you to.

380
00:22:07.440 --> 00:22:10.880
Rising Together? What? What? Because that's your latest book. Yeah,

381
00:22:11.039 --> 00:22:11.920
Rising Together.

382
00:22:12.279 --> 00:22:16.039
I it was partly so many men. What I heard

383
00:22:16.119 --> 00:22:20.960
from men was particularly men who felt outside the main

384
00:22:21.160 --> 00:22:27.000
the leadership mainstream, you know, who were black or Hispanic

385
00:22:27.480 --> 00:22:31.119
working in this environment, or who were you know, an

386
00:22:31.160 --> 00:22:33.799
Australian working in a Japanese culture.

387
00:22:33.920 --> 00:22:35.680
Whatever. That was. Oh that's tough.

388
00:22:36.000 --> 00:22:39.799
Yeah, it's it's and it's and it's you see it.

389
00:22:40.000 --> 00:22:43.400
You know, Japanese are I mean, Australians are very much

390
00:22:43.440 --> 00:22:48.680
in die diaspora in the South and East Asia. So

391
00:22:49.720 --> 00:22:53.079
it I thought, you know, we we have to look

392
00:22:53.240 --> 00:22:57.279
at ways in which people can feel to some degree

393
00:22:57.400 --> 00:23:03.240
marginalized in their career in terms of being recognized. We

394
00:23:03.319 --> 00:23:06.279
need to focus on how they can claim recognition. But

395
00:23:06.319 --> 00:23:08.680
we also need to focus on how do you build

396
00:23:08.720 --> 00:23:12.640
a culture in which people who are from diverse backgrounds.

397
00:23:12.680 --> 00:23:17.400
And this is a global phenomenon the US not absolutely

398
00:23:17.519 --> 00:23:22.240
right global. You have people of all walks of life,

399
00:23:22.759 --> 00:23:27.640
of life and color and all sh and gender and

400
00:23:27.880 --> 00:23:30.680
all of it. You have it everywhere in the globe.

401
00:23:31.079 --> 00:23:37.160
So we really need to understand how to build cultures

402
00:23:37.200 --> 00:23:40.839
that accommodate people who are diverse. And people are also

403
00:23:40.880 --> 00:23:43.160
diverse in terms of their mindset in terms of their

404
00:23:43.200 --> 00:23:46.359
expectations and what they want out of a career and

405
00:23:46.599 --> 00:23:50.720
their work ethic is and all these things. So that's

406
00:23:50.759 --> 00:23:53.200
what I was looking at, and I was trying to see,

407
00:23:53.359 --> 00:23:57.079
you know, how that shapes the culture to be extremely rich,

408
00:23:57.559 --> 00:24:02.880
how it attracts the absolute talent because you're drawing from

409
00:24:03.000 --> 00:24:07.880
a really the broadest possible pool. And then you know

410
00:24:07.960 --> 00:24:10.039
what kinds of behaviors I'm going to look at it

411
00:24:10.039 --> 00:24:11.119
in terms of behavior.

412
00:24:10.920 --> 00:24:13.440
So what what are the top behaviors?

413
00:24:13.480 --> 00:24:18.279
Well, I think that the top behavior is being really

414
00:24:18.680 --> 00:24:26.599
looking for opportunities for recognition, for public recognition for including people,

415
00:24:26.640 --> 00:24:29.640
for asking what are their ideas and then talking about

416
00:24:30.119 --> 00:24:35.000
not dismissing, but just considering, talking about thinking about it,

417
00:24:35.440 --> 00:24:38.720
including people in. I mean, this is these things are

418
00:24:38.759 --> 00:24:44.119
so simple and so basic, including hard, very hard thinking.

419
00:24:43.799 --> 00:24:45.160
About when you're going to have a meeting.

420
00:24:45.160 --> 00:24:46.880
Okay, we're going to have the first year and this

421
00:24:47.119 --> 00:24:49.359
you know, how people structure a meeting.

422
00:24:49.559 --> 00:24:50.319
Who's involved?

423
00:24:50.680 --> 00:24:54.359
Think broadly, Okay, who might be able to benefit from

424
00:24:54.359 --> 00:24:57.640
this meeting, even just seeing what's going on in the

425
00:24:57.680 --> 00:25:01.079
meeting so they have a better understanding of what this, say,

426
00:25:01.160 --> 00:25:04.200
product roll out it's going to look like, you know how.

427
00:25:04.319 --> 00:25:07.079
I mean when I talk to very junior people, especially

428
00:25:07.160 --> 00:25:10.400
people who are in an admin in companies, they often

429
00:25:10.440 --> 00:25:14.240
don't even know what the company does, but.

430
00:25:14.119 --> 00:25:16.480
They That's kind of shocking, isn't it.

431
00:25:16.480 --> 00:25:19.880
It's shocking because there's no opportunity to find out. They're

432
00:25:19.920 --> 00:25:23.519
just you know, they're really in a narrow Niche give

433
00:25:23.559 --> 00:25:26.519
them some information, let them see how the company runs,

434
00:25:27.599 --> 00:25:30.440
because there are a lot of very very talented people

435
00:25:31.039 --> 00:25:34.119
out there, and I think this goes with how we're

436
00:25:34.119 --> 00:25:38.400
thinking about things. I know, Delta Airlines has this program

437
00:25:38.440 --> 00:25:43.480
where they are they're there. They've taken sort of having

438
00:25:43.559 --> 00:25:49.440
a college degree off the off the list of requirements

439
00:25:49.799 --> 00:25:55.039
for ye requirements for people to go into real leadership positions,

440
00:25:55.680 --> 00:25:59.839
and it's you know, so they can come up through

441
00:25:59.880 --> 00:26:03.079
the ranks and they can use that talent and they

442
00:26:03.079 --> 00:26:07.000
can get you know, the qualifications they need, recognizing that

443
00:26:07.079 --> 00:26:10.279
the people who interact with the customer are the people

444
00:26:10.279 --> 00:26:13.359
who have the best understanding of the customer. And hey,

445
00:26:13.640 --> 00:26:16.759
they might be running customer service that could be a

446
00:26:16.759 --> 00:26:19.359
good idea, They may have an insight that might be

447
00:26:19.519 --> 00:26:24.000
very helpful. Exactly, so you know that the culture is changing.

448
00:26:25.119 --> 00:26:28.880
Part of this is that college has become so expensive

449
00:26:29.279 --> 00:26:31.880
that a lot of talented people are just kind of

450
00:26:31.920 --> 00:26:33.079
bypassing it or.

451
00:26:33.119 --> 00:26:34.640
Going only for a couple of years.

452
00:26:35.119 --> 00:26:38.279
You know, you don't want to graduate with one hundred

453
00:26:38.319 --> 00:26:42.279
and fifty thousand dollars in student debt. And that's very

454
00:26:42.319 --> 00:26:44.759
easy to do, very easy to do.

455
00:26:45.240 --> 00:26:45.440
Yeah.

456
00:26:45.880 --> 00:26:49.440
Yeah, so, Sally, so tell me what is next for you?

457
00:26:50.000 --> 00:26:52.960
What's what's the next big passion that you have that

458
00:26:53.000 --> 00:26:55.920
you're going to direct your energy towards.

459
00:26:56.240 --> 00:27:01.039
Well, it will certainly remain in this field. I'm sure

460
00:27:01.079 --> 00:27:02.680
this is the most.

461
00:27:02.640 --> 00:27:06.960
Gratifying feel to be in and it's also fascinating because

462
00:27:07.000 --> 00:27:09.960
it changes so much. And this has been the last

463
00:27:09.960 --> 00:27:14.039
few years have been extremely challenging because companies have wanted

464
00:27:14.079 --> 00:27:19.680
to stay below the radar with any diversity aspects and

465
00:27:20.240 --> 00:27:22.720
rising together kind of got caught in that. You know,

466
00:27:23.000 --> 00:27:27.440
just as that book came out, companies were being pressured

467
00:27:27.599 --> 00:27:31.559
to a band diversity initiatives. In fact, in the last

468
00:27:31.599 --> 00:27:35.359
two years with the women's leadership work. You know, in

469
00:27:35.480 --> 00:27:40.240
March it's International Women's Month, that's always been my big month. Yeah,

470
00:27:40.279 --> 00:27:45.960
and I've had two out of say twenty five engagements

471
00:27:46.000 --> 00:27:47.000
in the United States.

472
00:27:47.039 --> 00:27:48.519
I've had plenty outside.

473
00:27:48.880 --> 00:27:52.279
You know, it's kind of fallen off in the US,

474
00:27:52.599 --> 00:27:54.119
So it's evolved.

475
00:27:54.240 --> 00:27:57.559
You are, you are saying that people are really corporations

476
00:27:57.599 --> 00:28:01.319
are really listening to the message that diversity and inclusion

477
00:28:01.400 --> 00:28:04.880
is really not important or whatever, and they're going under

478
00:28:04.920 --> 00:28:06.519
the radar and they're acting on that.

479
00:28:07.359 --> 00:28:10.799
They're acting on it. They haven't bought into it. That's

480
00:28:10.839 --> 00:28:14.000
what I believe. Interest that they recognize it. They have

481
00:28:14.039 --> 00:28:18.160
to hire people. They're looking for talented people, and they

482
00:28:18.720 --> 00:28:21.000
want to develop people, and they don't want a bad

483
00:28:21.079 --> 00:28:23.559
reputation among people coming in, and they look at what

484
00:28:23.680 --> 00:28:27.759
the population looks like of students coming in, how diverse

485
00:28:27.799 --> 00:28:31.599
it is. So they understand it, they get it. But

486
00:28:31.680 --> 00:28:36.400
they're trying to fly under the radar in this particular

487
00:28:36.640 --> 00:28:41.400
period by not having any big conferences, etc. Making any

488
00:28:41.400 --> 00:28:45.920
big statements and they're trying to fly under the radar

489
00:28:45.960 --> 00:28:48.440
and just wait till this period passes.

490
00:28:48.599 --> 00:28:51.359
Essentially, Sally, that was beautifully said.

491
00:28:51.680 --> 00:28:57.920
That was very tactically said, I mean tech tactfully said, well,

492
00:28:57.920 --> 00:28:58.720
it's what I see.

493
00:28:58.960 --> 00:29:02.119
And yeah, you know, they have a different perception than

494
00:29:02.319 --> 00:29:06.599
the people who are, you know, doing this anti DEI thing.

495
00:29:07.400 --> 00:29:09.799
And you know, one of the things I realized, a

496
00:29:09.799 --> 00:29:13.400
lot of the noisiest people on the anti DEI thing,

497
00:29:13.920 --> 00:29:15.200
you know, run these hedge funds.

498
00:29:15.200 --> 00:29:16.960
They've going to hire about six people.

499
00:29:17.279 --> 00:29:20.720
It's not like ge, it's not like you a big company,

500
00:29:20.799 --> 00:29:22.480
it's not like Delta et cetera.

501
00:29:22.960 --> 00:29:27.160
And so they don't even you know, need to.

502
00:29:27.079 --> 00:29:30.160
Think about it, or they don't want to think about it.

503
00:29:30.160 --> 00:29:31.440
It's so it's really.

504
00:29:31.519 --> 00:29:37.039
To me, it's it's it's a it's not discouraging. It's

505
00:29:37.160 --> 00:29:41.839
just a time to be negotiated. And I am interested

506
00:29:42.160 --> 00:29:46.400
in being part of that we get through this, Yeah,

507
00:29:46.799 --> 00:29:47.880
how do we get through this?

508
00:29:48.039 --> 00:29:51.400
How do we transform through this? How do we transition?

509
00:29:52.000 --> 00:29:56.079
And it's a well transition, transition to something else, and

510
00:29:56.119 --> 00:29:58.480
we don't quite know what that is. And we hear

511
00:29:58.519 --> 00:30:00.680
all this about AI and it's going to change and

512
00:30:00.680 --> 00:30:02.240
nobody's going to have a job, and it's all going

513
00:30:02.319 --> 00:30:03.839
to be, you know, robots.

514
00:30:04.079 --> 00:30:06.400
But I've been hearing it's all going to be robots

515
00:30:06.440 --> 00:30:11.240
for forty years, you know, so exactly, I'm a little

516
00:30:11.279 --> 00:30:15.240
skeptical on a lot of that. Obviously, there are jobs

517
00:30:15.240 --> 00:30:19.240
that are being replaced, but I think that in a

518
00:30:19.279 --> 00:30:22.359
time of transition, we need to look for clues and

519
00:30:22.400 --> 00:30:26.480
we need to We're just going to need some help

520
00:30:26.559 --> 00:30:30.000
in being able to navigate the transition. The other thing

521
00:30:30.079 --> 00:30:35.079
is I find people immensely discouraged. Oh we've gone back,

522
00:30:35.480 --> 00:30:38.119
Oh we're going backward. We thought we made progress, but

523
00:30:38.200 --> 00:30:41.559
it was just ridiculous. What I have to bring at

524
00:30:41.559 --> 00:30:46.640
this point is I've been in this field, active and

525
00:30:47.200 --> 00:30:51.720
participant for forty years. Before that, I had a career

526
00:30:51.880 --> 00:30:53.920
for you know, fifteen years.

527
00:30:54.160 --> 00:30:56.319
Yes, so I've.

528
00:30:56.039 --> 00:30:59.160
Seen it all and I've heard over and over, oh

529
00:30:59.200 --> 00:31:02.519
this is over, this is no longer. Oh that's so nineties,

530
00:31:02.720 --> 00:31:07.640
you know when's leadership is so nineties whatever, and it's

531
00:31:07.799 --> 00:31:11.079
not really how it is. So I feel like I

532
00:31:11.119 --> 00:31:16.160
can bring this perspective in a way that will offer

533
00:31:16.759 --> 00:31:24.160
hope for and tactics for navigating through a challenging period

534
00:31:24.880 --> 00:31:28.559
that's going to have a lot of impact in terms

535
00:31:28.000 --> 00:31:31.440
of how how things unfold in the world.

536
00:31:31.799 --> 00:31:35.039
Yeah, it's really it's it's kind of a fascinating time.

537
00:31:35.400 --> 00:31:38.720
But you know, I think to your point, companies have

538
00:31:38.759 --> 00:31:43.599
to hire. Companies know that if they have a diverse workforce,

539
00:31:44.039 --> 00:31:48.599
they can tap into the customer better. Yes, and actually

540
00:31:48.640 --> 00:31:50.960
they tend to make more money. They tend to make

541
00:31:51.000 --> 00:31:51.960
more profit.

542
00:31:51.960 --> 00:31:56.359
Absolutely, and they draw from a wider pool of talent.

543
00:31:56.440 --> 00:31:59.160
They don't start off with a restricted pool of talent

544
00:32:00.160 --> 00:32:03.480
to hire. This kind of person will hire the best. Well,

545
00:32:03.599 --> 00:32:04.559
you know you've got.

546
00:32:04.880 --> 00:32:05.400
If you want to.

547
00:32:05.440 --> 00:32:08.480
Hire the best, you go to a big tool pool

548
00:32:08.519 --> 00:32:09.519
of twenty.

549
00:32:09.680 --> 00:32:10.160
Is it there?

550
00:32:10.720 --> 00:32:14.920
Yeah, it is, it is, well, Sally. So, So what

551
00:32:15.440 --> 00:32:18.160
parting last word do you want to say to people?

552
00:32:18.680 --> 00:32:19.759
Keep hope in your heart.

553
00:32:20.440 --> 00:32:24.400
Oh, I love that the gains that we have made

554
00:32:24.599 --> 00:32:29.359
in terms of how of who matters in the workplace

555
00:32:29.640 --> 00:32:34.599
in our communities will not be erased. They it goes

556
00:32:34.680 --> 00:32:39.319
in waves, and having some perspective about that and keeping

557
00:32:39.359 --> 00:32:42.039
hope in your heart is what what I think is

558
00:32:42.119 --> 00:32:43.640
most important.

559
00:32:44.039 --> 00:32:46.839
I love that. That is absolutely beautiful. And how do

560
00:32:46.880 --> 00:32:49.440
people get a hold of you? Because I know people

561
00:32:49.480 --> 00:32:50.680
are going to want to get a hold of you.

562
00:32:50.720 --> 00:32:52.400
They always do. Thank you.

563
00:32:52.960 --> 00:32:56.680
Yes, I'm easy to get hold of. My website, Sally

564
00:32:56.759 --> 00:33:00.720
Heelgison dot com has a contact button so you can

565
00:33:01.799 --> 00:33:04.400
email me. I'm in a very quiet period right now

566
00:33:04.440 --> 00:33:06.559
where I'm rethinking my own transition.

567
00:33:06.599 --> 00:33:07.839
I love that great.

568
00:33:07.880 --> 00:33:11.839
So I'm not particularly on social media and trying to

569
00:33:11.960 --> 00:33:14.559
email me through LinkedIn is a terrible idea because I

570
00:33:14.599 --> 00:33:18.079
guess so much. But just you know, if you want

571
00:33:18.119 --> 00:33:20.440
to get in touch with me, press the button contact

572
00:33:20.480 --> 00:33:23.559
Sally Elguson and I'll go right to my email and

573
00:33:23.640 --> 00:33:25.240
I will respond, well.

574
00:33:25.359 --> 00:33:29.200
Excellent, very very good. So I can't thank you enough, Sally.

575
00:33:29.240 --> 00:33:32.359
And it's just been since I've met you, it's just

576
00:33:32.359 --> 00:33:35.400
been a beautiful career to watch and to watch the

577
00:33:35.440 --> 00:33:40.400
impact that you've had on women and the workplace and

578
00:33:40.440 --> 00:33:44.319
women and men working together, which I think is absolutely brilliant.

579
00:33:44.720 --> 00:33:46.480
So have a wonderful.

580
00:33:46.559 --> 00:33:50.160
Rest of whatever part of the time zone you're in

581
00:33:50.759 --> 00:33:52.839
and we will talk again for sure.

582
00:33:52.920 --> 00:33:56.240
Absolutely. Thank you Sally so much. Thank you Linda. It's

583
00:33:56.240 --> 00:33:58.480
a pleasure to be with you appreciate it.

584
00:33:59.200 --> 00:34:02.160
So thank you so much for joining the show today,

585
00:34:02.680 --> 00:34:05.559
and I hope you will see us and tune in

586
00:34:06.400 --> 00:34:09.199
for the next one, which we'll be coming up very shortly.

587
00:34:09.679 --> 00:34:11.719
So thank you all for joining the show.