You’re Always Negotiating

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0:45 Well, hello everybody, thanks for joining the show again today. Really looking forward to having an interesting show. We have doctor Greg Williams with us, and he is a master negotiator. Doctor Williams has spoken all over the world done ted talks. Is able to help people understand human body behavior. Look at what that means in terms of negotiation practices, and I mean he's just an insightful individual. He's also a member of the Marshall Goldsmith one hundred Coaches, a very prestigious group of which I also am a part. And actually that's how we know each other. I'm not going to be labor the fact here very much and just get right into our discussion with doctor Greg Williams. Greg, thanks so much for joining me.

1:40 Okay, well, I could go all the way back to when I was four. You, Oh, you don't want me to go back that far. Sure, No, I don't think so. No. So you're a good guy. You probably had You're a big guy. You probably had to negotiate your way through a lot of different things. Well, I did, and even Okay, I'll tell you a brief story when I was four. When I was four, I was allowed to shine shoes. My parents allowed me to shine shoes at the corner bar, which was about three or four doors away from our home, and I used to observe how I interacted with people at four years old, not understanding that I was negotiating, but I also was observing body language signals that would allow me to readjust my pitch shoeshine, sir, shoeshine, sir, mister Johnson, would you like a shoe shine, sir? One of those things. Now, let's progress past that point, because when I prior to leaving Corporate America, I was a vice president of an organization and my division had the highest sales amongst all divisions in the corporation. The president asked me, what are you doing differently than everyone else, and I said, well, I've taught my fluke how to negotiate better, and negotiation is something that we do every day, yeah, constantly. And the way I started practicing more or acquiring more skills about the negotiation process is observing what worked, what didn't work.

3:04 And then as I grew deeper into my negotiation expertise, I read all kinds of books. Again, I started speaking throughout the world about the negotiation process and attended institutions whereby I was able to enhance my negotiation skills. And Linda, I said, a moment ago, we're constantly negotiating. That's my motto. You're always negotiating. So for me, negotiation is somewhat of a fun process because I believe in every situation, a when is somewhere to occur. You just have to make sure you can dig deep enough to pull it out. Wow wow, So how do you dig deep enough to pull it out?

3:47 Greg, Well, that depends on the situation, what people want from the negotiation and the relationship to what degree one wants to preserve it. Later on, I say, all of that is simply state, you and I are negotiating from a win win perspective, and I want to preserve the relationship as well as you, we will negotiate more, let's say, gently, than otherwise would be the case if we had a win lose perspective from either of our sides. You have a well, the only way I can win is if Greg loses or if I have that same perspective. If we have that mindset, we're going to have much of a more of a rigorous interaction, and more than likely it will not be as respectful as with the first situation that I actually spoke about. So how do you dig deeper? If let's take the win win situation? So, Linda, what would it take to have this be perceived by you as a successful negotiation outcome? You give me your perspective.

4:50 I'm listening to it, and not only am I listening to what you say, I'm listening to the words that you use to represent your thoughts, and I'm listening to how you are positioning yourself with those words. I'm also observing the body language that comes along with that from a nonverbals perspective, and I'm looking and listening to the tonality that you're also using. Well, Greg, I'd love to see us come out with a situation that allows both of us to feel as though we walked away satisfied and happy. Now let's flip that over to the wind lose perspective. Yeah, well, Greg, look, this is the way that we're going to do this. If we can do it this way, we'll be happy. I need ninety percent of this outcome, and yes, I'll give you ten percent for now. In the future, though somewhere down the line, hopefully I can give you a greater return. Are you in agreement? Now you've heard the tonality difference and you've heard difference. Yeah, totally exactly. So those are some of the aspects that one has to consider when you're going to dig deeper, because in certain cases, you may want to let that other individual, that last individual type take you down a particular path to see how far they would take you down that path, and then you can flip the script on them. So, again, to answer your question, it depends on how deep you want to dig based on the styles of the negotiators, what they want, and the demeanor they display while they're negotiating.

6:22 Well, and how do you determine which style you're going to use, because sometimes you don't really know what type of negotiation it's going to be. Well, in high stakes negotiations with some of my clients, as an example, we have done extensive research on the opposition for why they are even negotiating with us, what are their alternatives, and to what degree they may walk away from the negotiation based on leverage that they or we apply in the negotiation. So I say all of that to say one should never walk into a negotia blindly. That's to say, not knowing anything about the other party. Okay, let's say if it's a milder relationship type of environment that you walk into and you don't know anything about the opposition, you can take a neutral position. So for example, you're seeing me now, and for those that are listening to it, I've adopted a real neutral stance. Even in my position, I'm not leaning forward, I'm not really leaning back.

7:28 I'm just there. And what I'm doing, even with my tonality, is not trying to express any positional perspective that I have based on the tonality that I'm using, as opposed to if I'm talking at this particular level there's a sense of anxiety that I'm conveying, and it may be picked up by an astute opposition or if I'm talking with this tonality, it also cast a different perspective of saying, well, he sounds like someone of authority. So there's a positioning PERSPECTI that even if you don't know that individual, you can position yourself such that you allow them to let you know more about them. So I would ask you questions, So, Linda, how are you doing today? And you would give me some response. Again, I'm gauging based even on your response, and again word choice along with your nonverbal displays what your demeanor is. Then I'm listening intently to how you position yourself because and so doing, you're telling me through verbal and nonverbal conveyance, exactly how you feel, what you want, and how far you're willing to go. And I made them turn around and ask probing questions. I appreciate the fact that you're negotiating with me. Why did you choose to do so? So I'm going to ask you as many questions as I possibly can. And just as a sidebar, the person asking questions in a negotiation to the degree that they're getting answers is leading the negotiation. Why, because

9:03 they're gathering more information from which to position reposition, reposition, reposition themselves. Yeah, and they're controlling the conversation. Definitely. So exactly, they are controlling the conversation. Again, as an aside, I was speaking at some event and I had. You were just in Lithuania, weren't you. Yes, I was just in Lithuania. But well, that was a different story that I was about to tell. Well, tell the story you were about to tell. Okay, Well, I brought a lady up on stage, and I was displaying the fact of how you use questions to gather information and you can sidestep questions if you choose to do so. So I asked her to ask me a question, and she said, well, where were you born?

9:48 I said, well, why do you want to know? And she said, oh, I just I'm interested to know the people that I engage with per their background. I said, oh, and what do you plan to do with that information? And she said, well, I'm not exactly sure. And I said, well, if you were sure, And again the point was in that situation, answering questions with the question to control the flow of the negotiation. And finally she said, you're not asking answering any of my questions, and I said, is that bothering you? And of course what he is laughed because they realize again I still wasn't answering it. But that's how you use questions to actually control a negotiation. And again, to the degree someone allows you to do so, by answering your questions, you're in greater control. Now you were asking about me speaking in Lithuania, reason.

10:36 Yes, what was that like? Oh? What was it like? Yeah? Very interesting from the perspective of there's a cultural difference from the mannerisms displayed, which is a good topic that we can discuss right now. I'd like to discuss that the. Cultural difference from which body language is displayed, even to what degree people are willing to interact with you, how far apart they're willing to stand, to display comfort or when they are not comfortable, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, and even the pace of speech. So in that case, when I spoke to a live audience and they were about a thousand people in the audience, one of the things I did prior to speaking was walk around the auditorium, speaking to several different groups of people just to get them warmed up with me. And why did I do that?

11:30 I did that so they wouldn't think, Okay, well, here's this foreigner as American that has come here to tell us this, that or the other. I wanted to know what was of interest to them, and I spoke about that from the stage to the degree that I was able to bring that in to the conversation's flow. And I'll tell you, the people were super nice, and they came up afterwards bought lots of my books. And as a matter of fact, just this morning, I got a request from the promoter to do a webinar follow up webinar fan. Of course, and the name of your book is tell our audience, Well, you have several books, but what was the one that last?

12:16 Two? Body Language Secrets to win more negotiations. And as a matter of fact, I kind of keep a copy handy just so I can display it. And the other one is negotiating with a bully. Oh, how that's that's interesting. Both they're interesting. Well, well, yes, And the reason the publisher asked me to write both of these books was because body language plays an integral part in any Again, you know, people could say I agree with you, and for those that are listening to this, I was shaking my head no as I was saying I agree with you. And again the body allas, what's to stay in the state of comfort.

13:02 So when the body is out of that state, it will do something to justify why it's out of that state in order to put itself back into that state of comfort. So in the case when someone is shaking their head no and saying yes, follow the body. Ignore the words. The body is telling the truth. And if you saw that while you were negotiating with someone, you would kind of ask them a question in the form of a follow up. What would you ask them, Ah. Well, you know, I saw I heard your words, but you were shaking your head no. Can you explain the difference. That's one way to do it. The other thing is to observe, even before you get to that point, how someone uses their body in different situations, such that you have a foundation to compare something later too. So in the case where someone is shaking their head no and actually saying yes, in some situations, that might be that person's way of indicating yes, or the degree of profoundness that they are expressing yes, even though they're shaking their head no. So again there's not one size fits all when it comes to reading and deciphering body length. Thus the reason why you had to form a foundation for how an individual uses their body when they are communicating, and based on the environment, they may shift the perspective for how they use their body. And again I said,

14:34 the body always wants to stay in a state of comfort. So if someone is in an environment that feels unfamiliar to them or threatening, they will react differently in that environment if instead they were in an environment where they felt safe and open. So those are some of the justice. Even if it's even as I'm speaking, you may notice, for those that can see this visually, that my hands are open and I'm reaching out. Now here's a little sidebar. Also, note how people use their hands when they're speaking. If you're always speaking using gestures, because it helps your brain to formulate the thoughts that you have number one and number two, it's a gateway for how you're going to represent yourself. Here's a little thing I tell people from time to time. Sit on your hands and try to speak without using your hands. For ninety seconds or so about something and try to think about the fact that you're not using your hands. I did it recently with an audience and one lady was able to last for maybe seven seconds and that was it. It's just naturally started using our hands. And so those are some gestures that you can observe when people were speaking and at the same time understand what someone is conveying via their different gesture. Sometimes with the hands and palms faced out means stop of the time. Some people may use that same gesture to suggest, well, you know what, I like what you're doing. So again you have to understand how each individual is using their gestures to represent their thought.

16:06 So tell me about the bully, and then I want to go back to the answering the questions with other questions and other questions. I think our politicians have learned that technique. It's all going sure, And you asked about in the beginning some of my negotiation advancements. I've run for political office twice in the United I knew that, yeah, yes, and politicians are very adept not answering questions by asking a question. And or there's something called bridge and block block and bridge I'm sorry, block and bridge. So someone may pose a question what type of day are we having today? Or what type of day are you having today? Well, that's a good question, Linda. I appreciate you asking it, and let me tell you something that's related to that.

16:51 When you're negotiating, you have to be observant of how people use body language from you know, and they're off on answering what it is they want you to know. Or I've done tons of TV interviews and there are times when truth be known, an interviewer will try to throw a gotcha question that I've always been prepared for because I use that same block and bridge technique to do just that. So now back to the bully and aspect. Let's get to the bully. Yes, there are I talked about the wind lose perspective earlier. There are some individuals that have, for whatever reason, the perspective that the only way for them to win is to have you lose. Bullies adopt that same type of mindset and they will test you sometimes to find out how far they can push you in order to get you to do what you wish to do.

17:48 I also stated what you wish to do or what they wish you what. They wish you to do. Thank you, thank you, thank you what they wish you to do. So as an example, someone and then the goa may say, dog on it. Look, I'm getting tired of this. Either you accept the offer, or we can conclude the negotiation right now. Now, there's several ways that you can address that perspective. Say nothing now for the listeners, that's not dead air. That was me just pausing and not saying word. I have used that technic in negotiations when negotiating with someone that was very stritent, someone that was almost or in some cases a real bully negotiator type, and eventually they'll say something like did you hear what I said?

18:38 They can't stand it? Yeah, I heard what you Yeah. My thought is my question, why did you say it? Yeah? Now, I notice I've adopted a common demeanor at that particular point in time, because with a bully, be mindful of how you escalate a situation because to the degree that they will escalate. If you escalate and they escalate and you escalate, you really can lose control of negotiation. Again, if you've done your homework prior to entering the negotiation, with this type of individual, you already know that they have certain traits that may classify them as a bully, and you've adopted strategies per how you're going to engage with them and how you're going to deal with them if they use bullying tactics. What I just spoke of a moment ago of using silence and then a softer tonality is one way to see if the bully will adjust their demeanor. Now, let's say if they take it down a notch. Well, I'm a little frustrated, and I guess that's why I said it. Now you know that you have a different perspective from which to engage this individual. Well, tell me what's happening. Well, I'm under a lot of stress.

19:46 My boss told me I have to get this negotiation done. Well, what does that mean? Get it done? And so if you adopt that demeanor against that individual, you've now formed a team with the individual. Let's talk about how we can really reach a bottom line that will make both parties happy. Okay, I apologize for my behavior before. Now you completely changed that person's demeanor. Let's flip that and say the individual all of a sudden escalates the situation. Look, I thought we had an agreement before we came to the negotiation table, and therefore now I feel as though you're wasting my time. And there's a silence again. Yeah, there's a silence again, exactly followed up with possibly a question, why do you need time? I were negotiating in good faith? From my perspective, wouldn't you agree to that? No?

20:34 I don't agree to that. Well, what would you consider good faith negotiation? Well, if you just said yes to the agreement, if my chance, I made the same offer to you that you're making to me, would you accept it? Yes? I would. Okay, let's flip the script. Accept the offer. So now you put them in a position of looking at themselves in the mirror sotuce And two things happened right there. If they said yes, they would up the offer. And let's say, going back to that ninety ten that I offered that I made before. Yeah, now they're the ones at the temper cent on the temper cent side, and they just said they'd accept the offer. Chances are they going to go wait a bite? Who who Whooah?

21:14 No, I can't accept the offer, which then exposes to them the unequalness in and of the UH and that's another way to bring them back to a rational state of mind. Wow, very interesting. Do you use any of this greg school bullying? I mean, have anybody brought you in to do that? Yes. As a matter of fact, I have spoken throughout my career at certain schools because kids in particular have not formulated the right mindset in some cases of being accepted by others, and they feel as though they had the bully of the kids because of it, or to show that they need to be respected, or things of that nature. As a matter of fact, I talked about when I was kid growing up in actually in Philadelphia at four years old. As a kid growing up in Philadelphia, it was a very let's say, challenging environment at times because.

22:11 My husband was from South Philly. Greg, So I my husband was from South Philly, and I know the situation. Yeah exactly. And in my neighborhood, if someone stepped on another individual's toe or foot by mistake and did not say excuse me and or say excuse me in the right manner with the right demeanor, bam, you punched. Just a lot. That was the environment, and it was somewhat tough. So I talked to kids about understanding the reaction of their action and what do I mean by that, or I should say, the actions that will come forth as the result of their action. And I speak to them about before you act, think, And that's the message that I can to them, before you act, think what's going to happen if I do this? Because sad to say, I've seen kids really hurt badly as a result when I was a kid growing up and even afterwards because they did not act appropriately yah, whatever that was for the particular environment. And I tell them a bully is trying to seek attention, that's what they really want. And when you're dealing with a bully, at times there are ways to use leverage in order to make the bully change their perspective.

23:37 Very interesting, So, as we're coming to the close of this show, what three things would you say to people are the most important things to keep in mind when they're in a negotiating environment. And as you say, almost everything you do is a negotiation at some form or fashion. Well, three things be very you observe it of body and nonverbal cues that people emit when they're communicating with you. Someone leaning in and using a soft tonality is displaying interest. Someone leaning in and displaying a harsher demeanor, it's most likely trying to threaten you or to get you to do something that you otherwise would not want to do.

24:25 Using the same gestures, if someone is leaning back, they could be conveying the fact that they're not interested. If they look away momentarily, they may literally be processing information. Those are just quick things to observe when you're negotiating. Observe people's hands also, so again, the body language aspect is something that I always suggest people pay attention to when they're communicating with people. Number two, pay attention to the words that people use to thoughts. It's a nice day has a different connotation than the sky is blue and sunny. Okay, you say that's my new Yes it is, but it represents my new difference of thought process of the person that's actually conveying such sentiments. Number Three, I'll say it again and again and again. Remember that you are always negotiating. Even if you're interacting with someone at a level where you're saying good morning, you are conveying your feelings to that individual, and that individual is getting the perception of perspective of who and what you are.

25:30 Good morning says something different good morning, and people, hey y'all always other data. Yeah, yeah, hi y'all, Hey y'all. There you go, there you go. The cultural difference also a boy, boy, we have more time leader, we can really delevential difference and how to mirror someone to the degree that you really wish to connect with them versus not. Well, well, we're gonna have to have a part two, Greg of this. We're gonna have to have a part two. And there's I'm just gonna make a quick comment. Even neighbors can have pretty nasty negotiations. I just had one with my neighbor over a property line dispute, and it's it's just it's like, oh, well, so what do I do.

26:16 I'm getting a surveyor and a lawyer and we'll see where it goes exactly exactly. You know. It's it's people. People get their backs up. It's crazy. So, Greg, how do people get a hold of you? How do they how do they get you into their organizations? Because all organizations are loaded with levels and degrees of negotiation, and companies that waste time in win lose negotiations generally lose overall, So how did they get a hold of you? They can reach me via email at Greg that's g R e G at the th G Master m A s T E R Negotiator n E G O t I A t O dot com. They can also go to my website, which is www dot the maaster Negotiator dot com.

27:07 That's terrific. Well, thank you so much for being on the show. I really appreciate it. I learned a lot from it, and I'm sure that my listeners did too, And we will do a part two. That sounds good. Linda, once again, thank you for two things. Number one for inviting me to the show and also for being a caring, giving person that's always willing to extend help to others throughout them. Oh, thank you. I really appreciate it. I loved seeing you in London. We had such a good time, Yes, we really did. Anyway, Thanks a whole bunch, Greg, and to my listeners, thank you all for listening and tune in next week for the next show.